ADSS 1.269 Maglione to Orsenigo: conversation with Ribbentrop

ADSS 1.269 Luigi Maglione, Sec State, to Cesare Orsenigo, Germany

Reference: AES 2360/40

Location and date: Vatican, 19.03.1940

Summary statement: Maglione informs Orsenigo of his conversation with Ribbentrop.

Language: Italian

Text:

I take pleasure in sending Your Excellency, for your information and guidance , some notes on the two meetings – one in the Vatican and the other in the German Embassy to the Holy See – which the German Foreign Minister had with me on the 11.03.1940, soon after his audience with the Holy Father (1).

The Minister affirmed his pleasure, several times, in having been able to see the Holy Father and to talk with him about the religious position in Germany taking advantage of his time in Rome to settle a few questions with the Italian Government.

He also told me that he was able, during the audience, to note with great satisfaction that the Pope still has his heart in Germany, and a great wish to reach a firm and lasting agreement with Hitler.

He added that Hitler also wants a sound and lasting settlement.  He has already given proof of his goodwill by stopping, by the hundreds, the proceedings against the clergy.  But Hitler is a man with far-sighted plans and thinks more of the future than of the present.  We cannot therefore think that we can reach the desired settlement at present.  Germany is now engaged in a terrific struggle for its own existence and greatness. Hitler has all Germans on his side: their energy is devoted to the attainment of victory; it is not possible to think about other problems.  Afterwards we will negotiate.

I did not fail to point out to the Minister that religion is also concerned with the present and it is therefore not possible to set aside the current problems which hamper it and cause sorrow, pain and grace danger to souls.  Replying to one of his frequent allusions to the so-called political activity of the German clergy, I recalled to him the Holy See’s instructions on this subject, instructions which the German clergy, at least generally speaking, obey scrupulously.  If in some particular instance these instructions have not been obeyed, the only thing to do would be to inform the competent ecclesiastical authority which would immediately remedy it.  But it would be a grave error, I added, to see political motives in the overall activity of clergy and people.

From here, passing to more concrete points, I recalled the particular attention of the Minister to some of the many facts which the Church has lately been compelled to deplore: these have already been communicated to the German Embassy to the Holy See with our note of last July which so far has not been replied to, and in particular other more recent notes, as for example the closing down of Seminaries and Theological Faculties, without even informing the Holy See although this is a matter which comes under the Concordat.

Regarding Poland – as the Minister handed to me an official publication on the Polish atrocities against the Germans and mentioned the political activity of the Polish clergy – I told him that the Holy See wishes to be accurately informed and therefore they have several times asked Berlin for permission to send a trusted clergyman to Poland namely Monsignor Colli, Counsellor of the Nunciature in Germany, but until now they have not had a reply in the sense desired; and in the meantime, the various reports which circulate on the situation in Poland, some of which cannot be confuted, are becoming very distressing.  We can ask the Polish priests to abstain from creating difficulties to the occupying authority, but it is not possible to pretend that they should renounce their love of their own country.  The presence of the Holy See’s envoy, I added, would help in clearing misunderstandings and in assisting the priests in their undertaking to devote themselves exclusively to their pastoral ministry.  He could, by keeping in touch with the German authorities, give useful directives and good advice to help the Bishops to bring the religious situation back to normal.  But I only received a vague reply.

I spoke also of the necessity of helping the poor Polish population and I reminded him of the request already made for the consent of the Berlin Government for organising assistance under the control of the Holy See’s envoy in agreement with the occupying power.  But I did not get a satisfactory reply.

At Villa Bonaparte I spoke again of the advantage of having a representative of the Holy See in Warsaw, in the interest of Germany itself.  He replied that he would think about it but added explicitly that he could not promise anything.  He spoke again about Hitler’s goodwill (who is looking to the future) and about the necessity of setting aside particular questions.

Notes:

(1) ADSS 1.257, 258.

ADSS 1.259 Sec State notes of Silvio Attilio: Ribbentrop visit

ADSS 1.259 Secretariat of State, notes of Silvio Attilio.

Reference: AES 2176/40

Location and date: Vatican, 11.03.1940

Summary statement: Report on meeting between Maglione and Ribbentrop.

Language: Italian

Text:

At 12.15, immediately after the audience with the Holy Father, M. von Ribbentrop came to see me accompanied by his suite. 

I came out to meet him in the Throne room and after the usual greetings I escorted him into the audience room, where the conversation took place, lasting for about one hour.

The Minister started by saying that he is not a Catholic and in fact he does not profess any religion because, although born in the Protestant Church, he had abandoned Protestantism as soon as he realised its errors and faults.

Having called his attention to the distressing religious situation in Germany, the Minister said that the Fuhrer is favourably inclined towards the Catholic Church and in fact he would like to come to an agreement with it, but the moment is very delicate … and more time is needed especially on account of the divergence existing between National Socialist politics and those followed by the Catholic clergy in Germany.

This allusion made by the Minister gave me the opportunity of pointing out to him how the Church, in carrying out its mission amongst the people, takes great care to remain outside and above politics; these are the directives given by the Holy See to the clergy all over the world and therefore to the Germany clergy, who, in truth, scrupulously comply with them as a general rule,  If a breach or this rule were noticed in a particular case it would be sufficient to bring it to the notice of the competent Ecclesiastical Authority, who would certainly not fail to remedy it.  But it would be grace prejudice, I added, to see in the whole activity of the clergy nothing but politics. A political end is seen in the work which the clergy does to stem the process of dechristianisation of the people, in support of the fundamental principles of religion itself, in the efforts made to give the appropriate religious instruction to children.

From here passing to more concrete points, I recalled the particular attention of the Minister to some of the many facts which the Church has been compelled to deplore lately: suppression of almost all Catholic schools: reduction or suppression of religious teaching in elementary and professional schools where frequently lay teachers of religion take advantage of their position for advocating the so-called National Socialist “Weltanschauung” and in this way fight religion itself; the closing down of many colleges and religious houses; suppression of famous abbeys, frequent arrest of priests and members of religious orders: systematic anti-Christian propaganda particularly through the Press which in its attacks does not even respect the Supreme Pontiff, while the church, subjected to the most rigid and strict censure, finds it impossible to defend itself against these attacks and slanders, when even the diocesan bulletins, one after another, are suppressed.

To all this we must add the closing of almost all the Minor Seminaries, of many Major Seminaries and not a few of the Theological Faculties, without even giving notice to the Holy See, although this is a matter which comes under the Concordat.

I felt it my duty to mention all these events, or at least the more important ones, in a Note given to the German Ambassador to the Holy See on 13 July of this year [sic] with a request to bring them to the knowledge of the government, who, on account of the repetition of so many distressing incidents, had probably not been kept well informed about the activity against the church in Germany carried out by subordinate authorities.  But so far I have not received any reply on this subject.

Passing then to the very distressing present situation of the Church in that part of Poland occupied by Germany, I mentioned amongst other things the persecution there to which the faithful, the clergy and even bishops are subjected.  I also pointed out that the Holy See cannot accept without reservations information frequently supplied by the German Embassy here, regarding the situation in that territory, and even less can the Holy See publish this information without being able to check it directly.  Hence the necessity that the Holy See should have an Apostolic Visitor in Polish territory.  This would not be anything new, because, as the Minister knows, both in the Ruhr and in the Saar, following a request of the German Government, the Holy See with the approval of the French Government, sent an apostolic Visitor whose presence there was greatly appreciated by Germany. The same procedure could be applied now to Poland.

The Minister listened with great interest, and though he did not think there were many difficulties against these suggestions he could not, however, promise any Government action to put an end to the matters complained of.

I reminded him, at the end, that the Holy See has many times asked the German Government to allow them to carry out their charitable work of assistance and succour in Poland in favour of those poor populations, but have received no reply.  To this the Minister replied that the Fuhrer wishes Germany to be self-sufficient even when giving assistance and added that lately the Fuhrer himself refused an offer of ten million dollars, for assistance, coming from abroad.

From this conversation, although carried on in a courteous manner, the impression remained that we can expect very little from the visit of the German foreign Minister to the Vatican.

Notes: 

(1) Silvio Attilio (1889-1957), Undersecretary Extraordinary Ecclesiastical Affairs 1940-57.

ADSS 1.258 Maglione notes: Ribbentrop visit

 ADSS 1.258 Luigi Maglione, Sec State, notes.

Reference: AES 2176/40

Location and date: Vatican, 11.03.1940

Summary statement: Two interviews with Ribbentrop.  Ribbentrop pleased with meeting with the Pope.   Maglione complained about persecution in Germany; Ribbentrop complained about ‘Polish atrocities’.  No progress on a Vatican representative in Poland.

Language: Italian

Text:

The Reich’s Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop, during two conversation he had with me (one in the Vatican lasting about one hour, the other in the German Embassy to the Holy See lasting about fifteen minutes) repeated several times his satisfaction at having been able – taking advantage of his visit to Italy – to settle a few questions with the Italian Government - to see the Holy Father again and to talk with him about the religious situation in Germany.  He had occasion to meet Monsignor Pacelli in Berlin who was then Nuncio to Germany.  He knew that he had the admiration of all Catholics who thought he was a Saint.  Everybody in fact had a great respect for Monsignor Pacelli, which he well deserved.  He, Ribbentrop, had a great respect for him; when he heard he had been elected and the warm-hearted words addressed to Germany just after having been raised to the Pontifical throne, he said: here is a true Pope.

This morning, during the audience granted to him he felt emboldened to claim, with great satisfaction, that the Pope has always had his heart in Germany and a great desire to reach a firm and lasting understanding with Hitler.

Hitler also wanted a firm and lasting understanding.  He has already given proof of his goodwill be cancelling, by the hundred, the proceedings against the clergy.  But Hitler’s plans are far-sighted, he thinks more of the future than of the present (?).  We cannot therefore think that we can now obtain the settlement hoped for.

Germany is engaged at present in a tremendous war for its existence, for its greatness.  All Germans are behind Hitler, from the first to the last: all are ready to fight heroically: all German energies are concentrated in this aim, victory: we cannot think about anything else.

Hitler has united the Germans and has saved Germany – and therefore Europe – from Communism.  He has obtained this result by rising above all parties.  Now only the State can outlines the policy of the nation, as it should be.  Catholicism, as Protestantism, delved too much into politics and the Catholics of the Centre were so involved in politics that they were prepared to vote enormous subsidies in favour of extremist parties if only they could stay in power.

Even now the clergy do not understand that the field of politics is not theirs.  We need therefore time and patience to reach a complete understanding and a settlement of the religious problem as desired by Hitler.

To this lengthy and rather disconnected monologue by Ribbentrop (in the first conversation) I replied that even when politics were free in Germany, it was not the Catholic clergy who meddled in politics, but only a group of German citizens, who were Catholics, it is true, but were using the rights granted to all Germans.  In any case, this belongs to the past,  Can we say now that clerics, Bishops, priests and members of religious orders meddled in party politics?  If there were any it would be enough to mention their names.  The Holy See …

“We know that the Holy See does not want ecclesiastical people to concern themselves with politics”.

“Then, give us the names of ecclesiastical people who behave as politicians.  There are none, I think, and I am sorry to note that there is a preconceived idea, a prejudice against Catholics: there is the idea that clergymen, Catholicism, as Your Excellency says, are concerned with political manoeuvres and everybody thinks or wants to think that every action and every statement they make is due to political reason and aims.

“But this preconceived idea has no foundation cannot even explain many, too many, distressing facts.  In the old Reich and in Austria almost all Catholic schools have been shut.  In many elementary schools religious teaching has been suppressed.  How can it be suspected that teachers of ten-year-old children could be political schemers?  When religious teaching is suppressed, catechism abolished, everybody must think that this is done because of hatred of religion.  The Crucifix has been taken away from schools.  In many places clergymen have been sent away, in many schools the teaching of a National Socialist Weltanschauung has been substituted for the Catechism.  Who can believe that this has happened on account of the clergy’s political activities?

And there are other painful facts.  The Government ahs closed many seminaries, small and large, has suppressed many novitiates, religious houses, abbeys, charitable institutions, has arrested many priests …”

“I am not aware of this …”

“Excellency, many months have elapsed since I handed a confidential memorandum of all the facts which I have just told you to M. von Bergen and I begged him to pass it on to Your Excellency.  I took the liberty on that occasion of expressing doubt as to whether the central authorities were informed on facts probably due to orders of the local authorities.  It will be necessary that I give you another memorandum on this subject”.

At this point M. Ribbentrop handed me an official publication on the atrocities committed by the Poles against the Germans and asked me to present it to the Holy Father. “His Holiness will be able to observe the injustice to us of the Catholic press which now writes about the alleged German cruelty and remains silent about the proven Polish atrocities”.

I replied that the Holy See wishes to be kept completely informed and therefore I have several times insisted on obtaining the Berlin authorities’ approval for sending a trusted cleric to Poland namely Monsignor Colli, Auditor of the Nunciature in Germany: no satisfactory reply has been received to date.

In the meantime, amongst the many rumours, which circulate about the Polish situation, some cannot be denied and are extremely distressing.  Many bishops have been sent away from the diocese, some, such as the Bishop of Lublin are in prison, together with many priests; a great number of members of religious orders have been arrested; many churches have been closed; in those still open, religious worship is allowed only on certain days and for a few hours only”.

“But in Poland, as well, the clergy devote themselves to political activities, and are against the Germans”.

“We can instruct the Polish priests to stay quiet and only to look after their pastoral mission, and to avoid giving trouble to the occupying authority, but we cannot ask them to renounce their love for the country.  The presence of a special envoy of the Holy See would help to clear misunderstandings and to strengthen the priests in their purpose to dedicate themselves exclusively to their pastoral mission”. (1)

“But Poland is under a military Government: no diplomat or consul can be sent there”.

“The Holy See’s envoy would not have a diplomatic status; only religious.

“By keeping in contact with the German authorities he could give useful instructions, good advice, help the Bishops little by little to restore the normal religious life”.

“But how could the presence of a representative of the Holy See be possible in an occupied territory ruled by the military?”

“Your Excellency should be good enough to remember that during the Ruhr and Saar occupation, Germany was glad that an envoy of the Holy See was present in those districts.  The French Government consented then to the presence of a pontifical representative.  Germany if I remember correctly, was very satisfied with the activity of that Prelate (Monsignor Testa) … more than France.

“Who was not very pleasant to us.  Well, I will think about it”.

I spoke to M. Ribbentrop of the necessity of helping the poor desolate Polish population, and about the permission of the Berlin Government, who had already been approached, for a relief Organisation, which could function under the guidance of Monsignor Colli or another cleric, in agreement with the occupying powers.  But I have received only vague words in return, tantamount, in the final analysis to a refusal.

At the Villa Bonaparte I spoke again of the advantage of having a representative of the Holy See in Warsaw, in the interest of Germany itself.  If the news about the harsh military occupation is without foundation as von Ribbentrop affirms, it would be useful to be able to deny it on the basis o non-partisan information...

He replied that he would think about it but added explicitly that he could not promise anything.

He spoke again about the goodwill of Hitler (who is thinking about the future) and about the necessity of setting aside particular questions. “The church looks at things sub specie aeternitatis”.

“This is true, but we must not forget that religious life pursues its aims also in the present and cannot ignore the obstacles for should represented by sources of grief, of pain and of great danger.  We cannot and we must not let religious life decline or perish in the present in the hope of seeing it resurgent in the future”.

Ribbentrop felt it his duty to tell me twice that he had no religion.  He was born in the Protestant confession but he had abandoned it because he is convinced that Protestantism has committed many errors.  He believes and affirms candidly that he is unbiased in his judgement on religious matters merely because he has no religious allegiance!

Notes: 

(1) See DGFP, Series D, Volume 8, n668, pp 896-98.

ADSS 1.86 Maglione to Borgongini Duca: thanks for news about Ciano's promise for German Catholics

ADSS 1.86 Luigi Maglione, Sec State, to Francesco Borgongini Duca, Italy.

Reference: AES 4248/39

Location and date: Vatican, 08.07.1939

Summary statement: Thanks for the news given about Ciano and his promise to intervene on behalf of German Catholics.

Language: Italian

Text:

I have received your Excellency’s Report Number 7009 of 01.07.1939 regarding the recent interview you had with his Excellency Count Ciano, the Foreign Minister. (1)

I have read it with great interest and thank you very much for the varied and interesting news contained therein.

I have also noted with pleasure that Count Ciano is agreeable to intervene with the prestige of his high office with the Reich Government regarding the present painful situation of Catholics in Germany.

Notes: 

(1) ADSS 1.81