ADSS 1.257 Tardini, notes: Ribbentrop's visit

ADSS 1.257 Domenico Tardini, Sectretariat State

Reference: AES Germany 774

Location and date: Vatican, 11.03.1940

Summary statement: Two interviews with Ribbentrop.  Ribbentrop pleased with meeting with the Pope.   Maglione complained about persecution in Germany; Ribbentrop complained about ‘Polish atrocities’.  No progress on a Vatican rep in Poland.

Language: Italian

Text:

I came in a few minutes after von Ribbentrop had left the Holy Father. (1)  I said “Prosit [good health], Holiness”. He described Ribbentrop to me as a young man, but not too young, vigorous, and excitable like a fanatic when speaking. (2) He himself told the Holy Father that he was a wine merchant and had not previously been interested in politics: but because of the extension of his export business and of the consequent relations abroad he became Hitler’s advisor on foreign affairs.  He declared his belief in God, although not belonging to any church.  He was born a Protestant, but afterwards he abandoned Protestantism because the Church has not longer any strength, organisation or influence.  At this point the Holy Father pointed out to him that the Catholic Church, on the contrary, was very well organised in Germany and strong.  Von Ribbentrop admitted this adding that he (and the Fuhrer) are not enemies of the Church but of the political Catholicism of the clergy. The Holy Father remarked that the German clergy had always been very patriotic, as demonstrated by the Saar plebiscite.

Von Ribbentrop remembered having once et the Holy Father at a reception in Berlin.  The Holy Father replied he remembered his stay in Germany with pleasure, that loved the German people, that he knows and studies its culture. 

Von Ribbentrop remarked that Pope Pius XI had used excessively strong words against Germany.  His Holiness pointed out to him that he addressed kind and gentle words in a speech to a group of German pilgrims.  This – said von Ribbentrop – was noted with pleasure in Germany. The Pope added that no more German pilgrims were arriving.  This Holiness recalled also that he was careful in his Encyclical letter not to offend Germany, although his calling obliged him to speak the truth.  He added that the small country, to which he alluded in his Christmas address, was Finland (in Germany, on the other hand, it had been identified with Poland). 

Von Ribbentrop brought Hitler’s greetings to the Holy Father.  He insisted on telling the Pope that Germany is very strong, that half the world is open to them that they can get all the petrol they need from Rumania and that they will win the war before 1940. (4) He gave this assurance without any trace of uncertainty. (5)  He repeated this more than once, raising his voice and gesticulating.  He added that the entire nation – without exception – stands with Hitler. (6)

The Holy Father called his attention to the fact that, this being so, political Catholicism is non-existent – everybody being on Hitler’s side, without exception.  The Holy Father pointed out that although he did not want to doubt Hitler and Ribbentrop’s intentions, the facts were demonstrating that war was being waged against the Church.  And he cited various positive and clear exampled.  Von Ribbentrop gesticulated for a while … He replied that we are in the presence of a revolution and, compared with others, the National Socialist revolution has not caused so much damage to the Churches. To which the Pope replied that the damages, in fact, have been many – and continued to bring forth examples.

Von Ribbentrop pointed out that the State spends a lot on the clergy and the Church.

The Pope replied that a lot has also been taken from the Church, houses, educational institutions – chasing malo modo the rightful owners out of them at short notice.  The Holy Father has particularly insisted on the subject of schools. 

Von Ribbentrop spoke at length against Communism, saying that National Socialism has prevented the triumph of Communism in Germany.  During 1930-32 (when, von Ribbentrop says, the Pope had already left Germany) Communism was on the verge of triumph.  Hitler conquered it.  Otherwise not one church would have remained in Germany, as was the case in Russia, as Von Ribbentrop himself was able to ascertain de visu. His Holiness observed that it is impossible to say for certain what might have happened … His Holiness then asked if Germany had nothing to fear from its union with Communism.  Von Ribbentrop replied in the negative: the union is only an external one and for the war.  Hitler had declared to Welles: the goal of the war for Germany is peace; for Britain, the destruction of Germany. (7) Replying to the Pope, von Ribbentrop said that there must be an offensive. (8)

The audience lasted from 11.00 to 12.10.  The Pope says its tone was polite.  Von Ribbentrop started by saying that he would speak frankly and clearly.  His Holiness assured him that he would do the same.  He suggested to him also to allow the Holy See to send somebody to Poland to look after the religious situation, for example, Monsignor Colli. (9)

His Holiness mentioned to me that von Ribbentrop notified the Italian government of his return visit to Ciano only on the eve of the day he was going to see him. (10) Apparently there has been some friction.

After the audience the Holy Father received von Ribbentrop’s suite (seven people) to whom he addressed a few words in German.

In the antechamber people were saying that von Ribbentrop entered the Pope’s room with a trouble and nervous face: he came out with a satisfied air.

Let us hope that German bad faith will not take advantage of this visit for its own ends and that instead it will produce good fruits. (11)

Notes: 

(1) The audience began at 11.00 and ended at 12.10.

(2) See ADSS 1.252

(3) The Saar region was 75% Catholic.

(4) Ribbentrop was referring to negotiations between Germany and Romania that culminated with the 27.05.1940 agreement.  Six months later Romania formally joined the Axis.

(5) Ribbentrop had brought a letter (written 10.03.1940) for Mussolini from Hitler which confirmed that Italy would enter the war on Germany’s side. See DDI Series 9, Volume 3, n492, pp415-23; DGFP Series 8, n668, pp871-80.

(6) Robert Lieber, Pius’ private secretary recounted Ribbentrop’s near hysterical response to any talk of peace.

When he [the pope] spoke of the war and of peace, von Ribbentrop shouted:  holiness, every conversation on this theme must end with the sure assumption , that France, and not only France, but Britain too, will beg Germany for peace during this year 1940.

Pius: This may be your view; what does the Fuhrer think?

Ribbentrop: The Fuhrer and I know that this very year France and Britain will beg for peace.

Pius: But what do the German people say about that?

Ribbentrop: The German people are convinced that this year France and Britain will beg us for peace.

Thereupon the pope changed the subject.

Pius XII, Stimmen der Zeit 163 (1958), pp 97-98.

(7) See ADSS 1.252 n1

(8) This was interpreted as a hint at German plans for the invasion of the West.

(9) Carlo Colli (1888-1947), counsellor in the Berlin Nunciature 1931-45.  He had been secretary to the Polish Nunciature 1925-31.

(10) Galeazzo Ciano (1903-1944), Italian Minister for Foreign Affairs 1936-43.  Diario I, pp233-35.  See Ribbentrop’s version of events – DGFP, Series 8, n667, pp894-96.

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(11) Tardini’s notes can be compared with Ambassador Alfieri’s repost on what the Pope told him about the visit (DDI, Series 9, Volume 3, n536, pp 466-68), with Benjamin Sumner-Welle’s report, also received by the Pope a few days later (FRUS, 1940, Volume 1, pp 107-08) and with the note written or dictated by Ribbentop in DGFP, Series 8, n668, pp 896-98.

ADSS 3.2.443: Maglione to Orsenigo on conditions in Wartheland

The situation for the Catholic Church in the "annexed territories" of Poland was grim, but for Polish Catholics in the Wartheland it was dire.  The Reichsstatthalter, Arthur Greiser (1897-1946) was a fanatical Nazi who was determined to implement the racial policies of the new Order with zeal.  He was also determined to destroy the Catholic Church.  He was to prove to be quite successful.  Between 1939 and early 1945 over 80% of the clergy were either expelled, murdered or sent to concentration camps from which only a few returned.  Over 1,500 churches and chapels were closed, another 500 were converted into warehouses, two were blown up, and the cathedrals in Posnan and Wloclawek were looted and pillaged.  Of the diocesan bishops in the area, only one, Walenty Dymek, auxiliary bishop of Gniezno and Poznan, remained in his diocese - the others had been arrested or exiled.

Regular practise of Catholic faith was increasingly restricted.  The Polish language was forbidden, even in the confessional.  Marriage between Poles was limited to men over 28 and women over 25.  Religious education was all but abolished for the young.  Even German Catholics were affected by the restriction.  Greiser was determined to destroy the church without regard for Germans or Poles.

In this document sent by Cardinal Maglione to the German nuncio, Cesare Orsenigo, we read an ongoing account of reports sent to Rome largely via Edward van Blericq, the vicar general of the Gniezno archdiocese.  van Blericq sent regular reports to the Vatican setting out the religious persecution operative in the Wartheland.  

Of particular interest here is the reference to restrictions placed on the administration of baptism to adult converts.  Evidently the Germans suspected Jews of attempting to be baptised in order to obtain the highly valued baptismal certificated that many believed would give a measure of protection against Nazi persecution.  The reality was that by the time this letter reached Orsenigo in late November 1942 any protection that the certificates may have afforded was long past.  In deed the vast majority of Jews in the Wartheland had been expelled into the General Government and were dead by the time Maglione wrote to the nuncio in Berlin.

The document can be found on the pages section.

ADSS 3.1.51 Orsenigo to Maglione: situation in Western Ukraine

In the previous post we read Montini complain at the attitude of some of the Catholic press who believed the pope was not doing what he should be doing in the face of German atrocities in Poland.  I find it interesting that the level of outrage at the stories emerging from Poland points to a general disbelief that such barbarism was unthinkable in 1939.  Montini's lament at the media's inability to understand Pius XII's delicate diplomatic position also points to a general consensus among many in, as yet, unoccupied Europe, that the pope had a moral obligation to speak out against, what was quite clearly, moral evils, and do so in unambiguous language.  

It helps the student to gain a better perspective when the following document is read.  Pius relied on information sent to him from across Europe - occupied and free.  Much of that information came from the network of nuncios who, in turn, drew their information from a variety of sources, some accurate, others less so.

In this document the German nuncio, Cesare Orsenigo, relays a report given to him by "religious persons" who have recently visited Lvov in Soviet-occupied Western Ukraine / Poland.  The account described the process of Soviet despoliation of Church property.  What was particularly notable was the reference to the Jews.

Orsenigo's information was partially true but not completely accurate.  

Many Jews in Western Ukraine welcomed the Soviet invasion but there were many who did not.  At first, the Soviet occupation indulged in a propaganda battle to convince the newly "liberated" people of the freedom they would now enjoy as Soviet citizens now safe from the twin evils of Polish democracy and German Nazism.  For Jews this was not all bad; the discrimination imposed by the Polish governments in the 1930s were now lifted.  To many non-Jews this became evidence of the pre-disposition Jews had towards Bolshevism.  It was to be a deadly myth that served an even deadlier purpose a few years later.

Orsenigo's report was written in late November after the sham elections were held in October 1939 with the unsurprising victory of the communist delegates and the escalation of Sovietisation including the beginnings of collectivisation of land, persecution of non-communists and the closing of all institutions that did not accord with the Soviet world-view, especially religious institutions.

In the absence of more reliable news, Pius and the Secretariat of State had to read, discern and balance the data they received.  It was a very difficult task and lends credence to later claims that news was often very difficult to verify.

ADSS 3.1.50

Reference: Report 248 (29.565) AES 8682/39

Location and date: Berlin, 25.11.1939

Summary statement: Report on the situation of the Poles under Russian control. Fines, harassment of clergy.  The Jews are best equipped to endure the situation – they have their own schools and military groups.

Language: Italian

Text:

I am in a hurry to send to your most reverend Eminence another note regarding the Polish-Russian territories.  Religious persons who have recently visited Lvov [Leopold] have reported:

1. That the enormous fine of 600,000 zloty imposed on his excellency the Ruthenian [Greek Catholic rite] archbishop, Andrea Szeptyckyj, cannot be paid, the archbishop not having at his disposal more than 35,000 zloty, which he has already paid and which may become the pretext for other oppressive measures.

2.  that the monastery of the Redemptorist fathers, as well as the Basilian father was dissolved; the fathers were dispersed, money was confiscated and the house given to the Jews (there are about 300,000 Jews from German-Poland who have emigrated to Russian-Poland). (1)

3.  that part of the convent of the Dames of the Sacred heart has been requisitioned for a dramatic company; the sisters have adopted civilian attire; eight sisters continue to teach in their high school with about 900 students, almost all of them very poor; the sisters receive 200 zloty a month from the Soviet authorities for their work; but the individual who supervises the college turned up one day – revolver in hand – and demanded one thousand zloty, but when the safe was opened, took two thousand.

It is hard to imagine the level of animosity of the Ukrainians against the Poles for the abuse they claim to have suffered.

In general the best-treated group in this Russian-Polish territory are the Jews, who have their own Jewish language school and special military groups only for Jews.

The worst treated are the poor peasant farmers, who have been burdened with a heavy tax on foodstuffs, which will inevitably result in another famine and to a high mortality rate.

Among the Redemptorists are nine Belgian fathers [left Russian-Poland]; the others, who are not foreigners, remain.  The father provincial, although Belgian, generously remained behind at the request of Archbishop Szeptykyj.  I pray your Eminence would be kind enough to send a copy of his report to his Eminence Cardinal Eugene Tisserant, secretary of the Congregation of the Eastern Churches, because of his great interest in the events in that region.

Cross references: 

(1) Orsenigo’s figures are inaccurate.  About 336,000 refugees fled into the Soviet zone of whom about 198,000 were Jews.  The Jewish population of the Soviet zone was 8.4%.  Within weeks of the invasion Sovietisation of the occupied zone began in earnest.  Systematic despoliation of church property was one aspect of the process.